The Unbankable Deal: A Conversation with Malcolm Turner
“Borrowers agree to the higher rates of a bridge loan because the math makes sense for them to close their deal.”
I recently had the privilege of interviewing Malcolm Turner, the CEO and President of Castle Commercial Capital. He is a pillar in Detroit commercial real estate and has brokered multiple loans to us at Kirkland Capital Group.
Turner recently authored the book, Financing the Unbankable Deal: How to Buy Commercial Real Estate with the Bridge Loan Investor Success Strategy, which explains the process of using bridge loans to invest in real estate. This book fills a gap in knowledge for many newer real estate investors.
During our conversation, we covered topics such as his background, the start of his company, the reasons why out-of-state investors are attracted to Detroit, current real estate trends, and his strategies for evaluating properties, among other things.
Video Highlights:
Malcolm’s Background.
How He Started Commercial Capital.
Insights into real estate, particularly in Detroit.
His Bridge Loan Investor Success Strategy (BLISS).
Books that have influenced him.
“One of the biggest challenges previously in Real Estate was the lack of knowledge. However, now we have access to a wealth of information that was not available to us a decade ago, which you can easily use to educate yourself.”
In addition to his professional pursuits, Malcolm is committed to philanthropy. He supports multiple charities, serves as a deacon at his church, and has been married to his wife, Krystal, for over 26 years. They have three children and a dog named Sasha.
Follow Malcolm on social media: Facebook | LinkedIn | YouTube | Twitter.
Watch the full video below.
Transcript
Brock Freeman: My name is Brock Freeman, Kirkland Capital Group. Really honored to be sitting here in person with Malcolm Turner.
Malcolm Turner: Once again.
Brock Freeman: Yea, uh, he's been doing deals with us for a couple of years now. And, uh, most certainly can say he's one of the best loan brokers out there in the commercial space.
Really knows what he's doing. And in fact, so much so recently you wrote a book about bridge financing.
Malcolm Turner: I did. Financing the Unbankable Deal.
Brock Freeman: Nice.
Malcolm Turner: How to buy commercial real estate.
Brock Freeman: I read the book.
I was, uh, I'm impressed with it. Uh, just really about how Malcolm's broken it down into easy to understand and really walk through lot of the I guess you'd say trouble points.
Malcolm Turner: Mmm. Hmm.
Brock Freeman: But, before we get into that too much, uh, let's have some fun first with some other... Other questions before we go down the rabbit hole, as I know both you and I like to do.
Malcolm Turner: Right.
Brock Freeman: So first of all uh, you know, I think you're around from here, but where did go to school?
Malcolm Turner: I, was born and raised in, uh, Detroit, Michigan. Um, we're sitting in Royal Oak just north of Detroit right now. I presently live in Southfield, another northern suburb of Detroit. That's also where my office is. Uh, I went to Kettering University but when I was there, it was in the eighties. You know, you know, back when it was a GMI.
Brock Freeman: I didn't know. You, You don't look a day over 39.
Malcolm Turner: I know, I know. Uh, but back then it was GMI, Engineering and Management Institute. I went there for, uh, mechanical engineering.
Brock Freeman: Wow.
Malcolm Turner: And, um, uh, got into, um, wanna say in the 90s. uh, middle nineties, I got into, um, financial advising. You know, in the early 2000 had my own wealth management practice. Um, and then they changed the law because when I was a financial advisor, there was a strict wall,
Brock Freeman: Mm-hmm.
Malcolm Turner: Between banking, lending and insurance.
Brock Freeman: Mm-hmm.
Malcolm Turner: But, they repealed Glass-Steagle.
Brock Freeman: Yep.
Malcolm Turner: Open that door wide open. Citibank became Citigroup and everyone went the races trying to get in everyone else's pocket with money.
Brock Freeman: Yeah.
Malcolm Turner: So, um, I got into lending and, uh, did, uh, because before I would have to someone else to do a loan for a client and, uh, it was like, Oh, well you can do them now. We go, okay. So now we're doing lending and investing or whatever. And loved the lending business. Um. I think I, I probably did my first loan 2003, 2004, somewhere around in there.
Brock Freeman: Was that in the commercial space or was residential.
Malcolm Turner: Residential.
Brock Freeman: Okay.
Malcolm Turner: That was residential. And uh, 06, uh, 2006, I got into commercial. Actually, I was complaining, uh, to my pastor on Sunday office about an argument I had with, with my boss at the local residential broker, you know, know, I put a first time buyer in like a 90, 000 mortgage. And he's like, you could have did an option arm.
Brock Freeman: Mm. Oh, I remember those.
Malcolm Turner: Put them in a $300,000 mortgage. You could've made five grand. You don't like money.
And I'm like, he's a first time buyer If that mortgage moves.
Brock Freeman: Yep.
Malcolm Turner: Which they all did.
Brock Freeman: Yep.
Malcolm Turner: And if that moves, he's screwed because he's got a fixed income. He's a single guy. There is no way he's going to be able to make that payment.
And, um, not, those are, those are terrible loans.
Brock Freeman: Yeah.
Malcolm Turner: And, um, and nobody read the fine print on them. They just sold them. They just said, how much do I make?
Brock Freeman: Yeah.
Malcolm Turner: Oh, you know, um.
Brock Freeman: And of course, in the end, a lot of those people, borrower's simply just looked at what's my payment today? What's the lowest payment I can make?
Malcolm Turner: I can afford $800 a month, but I'm in a, you know, 3000 square foot McMansion as we used to call them day. Right. They were chugging them out like fries. And it's like, yeah. And it's like, yeah, but once that mortgage moves and that true interest rate, cause they were one percent interest only for the first
Brock Freeman: Yeah.
Malcolm Turner: Then I think will jump from 800 to 4 grand.
Brock Freeman: Yeah. Well, they're adding it back on principal and then all of a sudden now, we're going to two years down the road.
Malcolm Turner: Oh, we'll just refi. We'll just refi and get out of it. We'll just do another one. Yeah. How'd that work?
Brock Freeman: Not well. We know from '08.
Malcolm Turner: Not well. So I got into an argument with him about the right thing. I said, we're supposed to do the right thing for our clients.
Oh, there you go Malcolm. Talking about do the right thing stuff.
Okay. You know, and so I took my pass and said, well, Malcolm, if you were going to do a mortgage company how would you design it? Well, number one, I'd do commercial. Mm. Commercial is about the numbers. It's not about how pretty the kitchen is. Or how expansive the yard is. Or the view of the back deck. Yeah. It's about the math.
Brock Freeman: Yeah. It's a lot less about emotion.
Malcolm Turner: Yes. And am I making money or am I not making money?
Brock Freeman: Well and I think the biggest.. the other big thing that fits well with your I don't want to say moral compass I wish everybody had that idea Uh, but, you more of that long term thinking you have for customers Doesn't, unfortunately, it's not what we see in, in the residential space a mortgage broker might not see someone for five, ten years, and by then they've forgotten about it, they've moved on, it's like, well I'm going to grab my commission, and it's like, you know, unfortunately, like sometimes used car sales.
Where you're taking more of that long term approach works really in the commercial lending space, the commercial mortgage broker, the commercial property space, in general commercial real estate. It is really about relationships. Once you build up that relational base and you do well for a client at one time, you're going to have that person as they're building their real estate empire come back to you again and again and again.
You're not selling rate and term, you're not selling the lowest payment, you're selling solutions.
Malcolm Turner: Right, right, right. And in this business, relationships are everything. Yeah. You know, and so when we When, uh, I got, you know, my pastor says, Well, how do you set that up? I'm like, Oh, you just get an office, you get some furniture, You know, you get some lending relationships as a broker.
You know, there's no licensing on the commercial lending side. You know, there was no licensing, period, back then. This is, you know, the end of 06. And, um, I was like, Yeah, you do this, you do that, boom, boom, boom, get an office. He said, Okay, great, let's do it. I was like, wait a minute. I thought you were talking hypothetical.
I wasn't actually saying I was going to do that.
Brock Freeman: I think I like this pastor already.
Malcolm Turner: Well, we should do it. I was like, oh, okay. Well, uh, all right. Within, uh, two months, Castle Commercial Capital was born. And, you know, that was in February, uh, 2007. Sixteen and a half years ago, so.
Brock Freeman: Okay, so what's with Castle? Any particular meaning there?
Malcolm Turner: Well, stability.
Brock Freeman: Okay, I like it.
Malcolm Turner: You know, back in the olden days, before there was banks, you know, uh, lords and kings would keep their bibles in the castle keep. Mm hmm. Because that was the deepest, most protected spot. That's where the jewels and the gold were, you know.
Brock Freeman: Makes sense.
Malcolm Turner: And so, um, because of that stability. Uh, that's where Castle Commercial Capital came up.
Yeah. You know, and we've been doing it ever since. And we, and, uh, we were doing brokerage and then 2019, um, I was approached by a billion dollar mortgage fund that said, uh, Hey, you got your notes, you want to sell?
And I said, no, we're just a broker. He goes, yeah, but I did commercial loans in Michigan. You pulled up on the first page of Google. So you must be doing something right over there. And I'm like, yeah, we're doing okay. And he's like, okay, so you're not a lender, like no strictly brokers. Okay. You have any paper to sell?
He says, well, you want to be one? Cause obviously you know how to market. And you know, if you're writing good paper, you know, we'll buy it. So I was like, Oh, well, tell me more. And then we got to, and it's in the commercial. Um, bridge space, you know, and, and no lender does everything.
Brock Freeman: Sure.
Malcolm Turner: Right?
Brock Freeman: Yep.
Malcolm Turner: So, you know, deals that fit within our wheelhouse, you know, if we're doing like, uh, you know, fix and flip, but I, and I didn't do, um, they were trying to get me to do fix and flip loans once a year.
And I was like, yeah, I'm not doing that. They're like, well, you know, we got this top broker over here, he did 180 million dollars. Oh, okay. Well, maybe I should have taken a look at that, you know, and so we got relations with guys like you, you know, and, uh, it works out well, obviously we understand, um, risk and, you know, integrity is everything and relationships are everything and, you know, good people that you can know and trust, unfortunately, Uh, or Fortunately, depending on your perspective, is, uh, is hard to find.
Brock Freeman: Yeah.
Let me digress for a minute, because I, I kind of, what's interesting, and for those of you who know that I'm out of Seattle and traveled here to Detroit to see a bunch of properties that, uh, you know, you've obviously placed with us for loans and we have from other loan brokers, and just to get a lay of the land since we do so many loans in the Midwest.
Yeah, honestly, we love the Midwest. I'm actually from Ohio, Akron, not, not too far away, about three hours away, and I just drove from there yesterday. Uh, so, you know, but what's amazing driving around Detroit is there, there's a lot of difference, obviously, between the neighborhoods. Um, and we've done some in the neighbors that are up and coming, but, you know, you're, you're boots on the ground here.
I'd love to hear from you where, why you think that the, there's opportunities here still. Particularly from, I think, a lot of people listening to this are going to be investors in our fund, who are going sometimes to Chris and I, Okay, you guys got a lot of Michigan loans
You got a of loans in Detroit, what's with that?
You know, I've heard, you know, Detroit ain't doing so good, but, you know, it seems like the numbers, you know, we wouldn't be doing these loans without the metrics, and we've always been very metrics driven. But, sometimes it's helpful to hear from someone who grew up here. You know, lived here, you've seen the ups and the downs, and what's going on now that we should believe, for people who are not from here, give me the boots on the ground, belief in Detroit.
Malcolm Turner: People who, ironically, there's a lot of people, um, you know, we go out to dinner later, we could be sitting in any restaurant, you know, in suburban Detroit, I can guarantee you there's investors who are out of state. Who said, okay, we went and looked at this neighborhood and these houses and these commercial properties over here.
What do you guys think? You know, because in multifamily as an example, just one asset class, 60 percent of the sales were consummated by out of state investors.
Brock Freeman: They're seeing the value here.
Malcolm Turner: Absolutely. Yeah. Because of affordability. Now, what folks locally miss, folks locally don't have the perspective of Atlanta, Seattle, Dallas, Miami.
But folks come from out of the state, they're like, wait a minute, you mean I can buy this much income for this much money.
Brock Freeman: Hmm.
Malcolm Turner: And at home, where they're from, they're like, okay, that building would cost me 2 million. I can get that here for $900,000?
Brock Freeman: Yep.
Malcolm Turner: Holy moly. Because at the end of the day, as an investor, we're buying a stream of income.
Brock Freeman: Yep.
Malcolm Turner: So if I'm buying NOI of 100,000 a year, well what's my cash on cash to acquire that, what's my cash on cash return?
Well, the lower it cost me to buy it, the bigger that return is.
Brock Freeman: Of course.
Malcolm Turner: So, you know, that's the thing about Detroit. So on the one hand folks are like, Oh yeah man, this place is terrible. And I'm like, Yeah, it is terrible. Go, you know, as an investor. Yeah, you're to invest here. You don't want to invest here.
But, you know, driving around town, you see development going on and someone who's lived here, you know, when I drive to a part of, especially, especially in Detroit, when I drive to a certain part of the city, I haven't been to in a while, I'm like, holy moly, look at all this new stuff growing up. Then I may, you know, go out to the birds and do something, you know, for six months or then I go to another part of town.
I haven't been to in a minute. I'm like, hey, they got a new place up here, they got a new place up there. That's a new strip mall.
Brock Freeman: Or even driving in on the highway. You know, we're, you can see the downtown, which we haven't been to yet, downtown Detroit, but I'm seeing new buildings, I saw new apartment complexes that have obviously been built in the last couple of years.
Malcolm Turner: Right.
Brock Freeman: So, you know, despite that kind of leftover poo poo about Detroit that's so much out there in the rest of America about what's happened since 08, that's obviously for the smarter folks who actually come here and look. And actually look at the metrics like we have, it's like, okay, I'm seeing some opportunity here.
Malcolm Turner: Right, and I, I personally, when I'm driving down the street as an investor, right, take my lending hat off for a second, I'm, I'm looking at triple net lease properties, right? So I'm looking at vacant, stand-alone buildings that I can then say, hey, Starbucks, here's a good opportunity. Hey, Olga's Kitchen, here's a good opportunity.
You know, Jamba Juice, Tropical Smoothie, Here's a Good Place. When I drive throughout, um, um, the suburbs and the city, I see these locations, and I'll say, Man, that's vacant. Okay, let me get on the phone. And I find out, oh man, someone got it already. Duh, got it. And these corporations look at the metrics.
Brock Freeman: Sure. The same metrics we're looking at.
Malcolm Turner: The same metrics we're looking at.
Brock Freeman: Things coming on up, recovering.
Malcolm Turner: If, if you got a spot, like I looked at a spot the other day, it was a Boston market that had been shut down. There's a Wendy's, there's a Baskin Robbins, there's a Pet Supplies Plus, there's the Jimmy John's, there's the CVS.
You know, there's all, all of those organizations, billion dollar companies have done their due diligence.
Brock Freeman: Yes, otherwise they wouldn't be there.
Malcolm Turner:
And said, oh look at the traffic pattern, look at the growth, look at the average income in the area. And said, yeah, let's invest money. So, who am I to say, yeah, I'm smarter than those guys, you know, and they're making money, and they're putting up new locations, and they're filling them up.
Brock Freeman: I'll tell you kind of an anecdotal story here about, you know, mostly, as many of you listening to this know, our specialty is these commercial properties, uh, at 1. 2 million and lower. You know, the reason they're using private bridge loans from us, and this is a lot of your book, and maybe this is a good segue to that too, but It is because you're taking an ugly property, maybe, many times an ugly property, and then you're going in because that's where the most money can be made for an active real estate investor.
Yeah, sometimes we've seen these pictures out to like, like people that are in, you know, want to invest in the fund, and they're like, Oh my goodness, why would a, why in the world would I? Invest in a fund that gives a loan on this kind of place, because that's where the money is. I'm sure everybody can relate in maybe the area that you live in, that there's some part of town that I don't know, 20, 25 years ago, I think in Seattle about the Rainier District, that you wish you would have bought some property there 25 years ago.
Malcolm Turner: Oakland. Or, yeah. Oakland, California. Okay. Now, okay, it's too late, you missed it. But if you were there 10 years ago, you could have got some good deals that now the values have gone up.
Brock Freeman: Exactly. And what do you think those properties looked like 10 years ago? Crap.
Malcolm Turner: And that's where you look at the path of development and the path of progress.
Right. And you can see that now in certain areas of Detroit where... Like, for example, in the Midtown area, there's a lot of development already. All the low hanging fruit's been gone from that spot. But now it's going out, you know, and it's moving north. And so now the area's just northerly. There's a KFC, um, that just went dark, okay, where the KFC shut it down, but there's still pain.
Mm-hmm. , right? And I was like, oh, I called on it. Mm-hmm. It's like a million dollars for the, for a vacant building. Hmm. Right. And I'm like, man, what? So I went and drove by, took a look at it. It's because of where it's at. It's in that path of progress.
Brock Freeman: Oh, okay. And so I wonder why that KFC shut down then, or it's just getting, getting a little old.
Malcolm Turner: Well, it could be that the, um, the franchisee Yeah. Decided to, you know, go somewhere. Not an owner of that property. Still, that, that KFC leases a corporate lease still has 7 years of payments. So that's the thing about a corporate guarantee.
Brock Freeman: Oh yeah, sure.
Malcolm Turner: Right, even if they shut that location down, they still owe you rent.
Yeah. Triple net, by the way. Right? So, but there'll be another one, and sometimes they'll just, they'll keep it, get another franchisee who's a better operator.
Brock Freeman: Ah, yeah. Right? So you might have an operator, that's the, that's the issue with some of these triple net, you might have an operator where, In that franchise that's not doing a great job, so they're forcing them out, saying no, you're not, they got their contract.
Malcolm Turner: Well, like that Boston Market location that I mentioned earlier, you know, um, the franchisee had some tax issues or something. And I was like, oh, let's go get that. And Boston Market was like, no, no, no, no, no.
Brock Freeman: We're not giving up that place.
Malcolm Turner: If he can't get his self together. We got another franchisee that'll take that spot, so don't worry about it.
Brock Freeman: So, right now there's a lot of angst and clickbait headlines around commercial real estate. It's doomed. Uh, you know, now people are chatting out and saying, oh, you know, um, Buffett has said that commercial real estate is doomed. Honestly, I think this is his politic to drive even more chaos and fear in there so he can buy up more stuff, honestly.
Think about it. Think about what he's actually said. Which is, when everybody's fearful, that's what you should be buying. Yes. Uh, so, I think there's something to that. But, tell me Malcolm, do you think that's warranted, or is there more to the story? Um, and is there more to the story maybe here, in Detroit? Have you seen, how have you seen that played out?
Malcolm Turner: I, I, I don't, I don't buy it. Okay. I don't buy it. I am not the gloom and doom guy. I was on a lender panel, um, it was an investor, commercial real estate investor summit. This was probably about a month ago, three weeks ago, something like that. And at some point someone was like, Oh, look at inflation and look at cap rates and, Oh, look at interest rates.
There's all this curl, uh, pearl clutching, you know, on the call. And I was like, okay, okay, time out. You know, I'm sorry. I'm an investor. I believe in America. I know this sounds corny. But I look at GDP, it's fantastic. We print money. Everybody can't do that. China, Russia, our supposed rivals, they can't print money and other countries go, oh yeah, their money's good.
No. They bank their money with our money. And we can print it and they'll still buy it. So, yeah, I'm not, I'm not that guy. And I look at inflation and I'm like, wait, okay. How are you investors crying about inflation? You're an investor. I love inflation. Oh, you mean my rents go from $20 a square foot to $25 a square foot?
Brock Freeman: Well, your asset gets, especially in commercial, your assets do continue to rise for the most part. There is exceptions to that. I mean, you can't fight the numbers on some of these primary markets where you have office buildings being cut in value and even some multifamily in some of these markets. I know.
You know, we're talking Phoenix and some of the hot markets and maybe that's because what goes up quickly can also maybe come down a little bit.
Malcolm Turner: You always have some over building, you know, there's always a tendency that folks to jump on the bandwagon. I think multifamily, um, has definitely been oversold as, Oh, this is the asset class.
And I look at it now and I said, okay. There's 10,000 coaches selling coaching programs on how to make it, how to get rich in multifamily. And I'm like, going back to Warren Buffett's example, okay, I think that's time for me to look at another.
Brock Freeman: That's why you're starting to talk about the triple net.
Malcolm Turner: Well, I, I, I, but that's just another class.
Here's the thing, everyone's raised their prices, okay? But you know what people have done? They paid them. They paid them. Look at the price of eggs. Oh my God. The price of eggs. You got, you know, eggs Benedict on your plate. What are you complaining? You still eating? Yeah. Oh, look at bacon. Okay. I'm still buying thin slice.
The thick slice from Costco bacon, right? The double pack. Okay. It's more expensive. You know what we did? We paid it. Amazon prime raised during COVID. They raised their annual subscription by 30 percent in one year. You know what happened? Nobody canceled. Everybody's like, okay, Netflix, same thing, raise their prices.
Brock Freeman: But that money, that money, that extra income or revenues and money to pay, that's got to come from somewhere. I was reading recently that perhaps up to 30 percent of small business, now I didn't see what exactly the definition of small business was, was having trouble getting clients to pay and then you turn that around.
There's driving some trouble and then making rents, leases, uh, You know, how fast that maybe translates into actually having to abandon a location. But, on the other hand, particularly in retail, which is probably where this mostly, you know, applies. It's hard to find, you drive anywhere, even around here as I drive around Detroit, it's hard to find any for lease signs.
Once in a while you'll find it for a lease sign in a retail. It's because none of them have been built, so maybe that's where a lot of opportunity still is within even Detroit.
Malcolm Turner: I just heard that, I just heard that this morning. A commercial investor was talking about how he thinks there's a big opportunity because they're, you know, people are shying away from office.
They're like, oh my god, office where it makes no sense. They're not building any new office. He was like five years from now. Office is going to be the hot asset class because when people walk away, right? And I think one of the things that we all thought office was going to be terrible because of COVID, right? But we're social beings.
Brock Freeman: There's something to be said about working from home and remote. I just don't think you're putting the cat quite back in the bag for that. Well, you're right. Eventually it catches up. Just like home building is overbuilt. You talked about your days of doing resi, why did things crash in 08, I mean of course because of these crazy 100 percent mortgages that was given to, you know, oh you're breathing, here's a mortgage, uh, of course they're going to go south, and then you got completely overbuilt, but then nobody was building into the early 2010s, so that got solved.
Malcolm Turner: The flipper market, the rehab and flipper market is red hot nationwide. Why? Because 15 years ago, all those builders got wiped out.
Brock Freeman: Yep.
Malcolm Turner: Right?
Brock Freeman: So you're right. I mean, I think there is a section of office that's going to get converted. Maybe old buildings knocked down or converted. You're going to see the newer ones that can't be converted to housing.
They're probably going to eventually fill up. It's just, things change.
Malcolm Turner: Well, and that's, that's the, one of the, the new talks going around in, in commercial is taking office and converting it to multifamily.
Brock Freeman: Easier said than done.
Malcolm Turner: I've seen locally some, um, self-storage where they're converting office to self-storage.
Brock Freeman: That seems more reasonable on some of them that are enclosed where you don't have egress on those windows, yeah. Right. I don't necessarily want to chase down that route. We'll grab a hold of it. Um, let's go to... Let's go back to kind of the investing part here.
So in, in commercial real estate, we have a lot of people who have done active investors who done fix and flips. They've maybe built up a good amount of, uh, assets that they have. They have, they have a lot of cash in the bank and they're like, you know, I'm kind of done with this fix and flip thing because it's not really investing.
It's, it's a good way to make some money. Uh, it's definitely not passive. Uh, you know, it's not even as passive as let's say owning an apartment complex or such. And so, you know, they kind of want to move on and think, you know, I need to get it in commercial. What would you say are the top two or three challenges?
And I mean, you've dealt a lot of this with your book. But top two or three challenges that someone looking to transition to investing in, active investing in commercial real estate should consider. And what's your advice about overcoming those top two or three challenges?
Malcolm Turner: Well... The beauty of the question you asked is when you asked. In October of 2023, we have access to more vast amounts of information that we did not 10 years ago.
You know, 10 years ago, if you've tried to get a podcast on commercial real estate, good luck. Good luck. Five years ago. Yeah. Good luck. Now. There's more real estate podcasts that you and I got fingers and toes. Not talking about all the stuff on YouTube or You know Instagram, you know, there's so much access to information now that one of the biggest obstacles Which is lack of knowledge and experience.
Oh you can Get educated real quick like my book. Yeah Right. One of the reasons I wrote my book was I was thinking okay Writing it not from what do I want to write? What does the market need? Yeah, right. And I went and thought through where do I add the most value on the lending side, right? It was bridge loans because bridge loans help people that have challenges.
The property is not perfect. Maybe the borrower is not perfect. Maybe the transaction itself because of time. Yeah, it doesn't have time to fit into that nice neat bank box. Yeah that they like to do Yeah, right. So helping someone especially on the value add side. Yes, right where you know, they're getting a property yet And I looked at a deal today Someone sent me the acquisition was like 995,000 it was a 36 unit apartment And we're like, okay,
Brock Freeman: I'm still like a 36, even for 995, I mean, that's just like pocket change compared to a lot of primary cities out there.
Malcolm Turner: Right, exactly! And I'm doing the math, right? I'm going, okay, what's the market rents and the investors going, oh, in that area? Oh, at least, uh, $1,300 a month. I'm like, okay, so we go $1,300 a month, times 36, times 12, you know.
Divided by 2 for the 50 percent expense ratio, divided by 8 percent cap rate, $3,000,000. Okay, what's the rehab budget on this? And she's like, well I haven't had a chance to get my GC in there to take a look at it, but I just wanna know, you know, what's, you know, can I get finance? Like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, Don't worry, yeah. You'll be able to get financing.
Brock Freeman: I'm gonna segue, I put a pause on answering the rest, but I'm just curious. Like I, I do get a lot of calls. We don't provide this as a lender, this sort of buy and then provide rehab funds. Are you finding these, you know, is there other lenders whose that's their niche is on multifamily like kind of this deal where, yeah, I'll give you, I don't know, 60, 70 LTV or they'll do an LTC loan to cost type of loan?
Malcolm Turner: Yeah, well they'll do, and that's getting to be a niche in the lending space. Okay. Right? So those who, who swim in that, in that, in that pond, um, that's really Blue Ocean. There's not a, there's not a tremendous amount of competition for that, right? But those who, the few, the very few that swim there, they're typically right now doing like 75 percent of the purchase price. You know, I got one lender I work with out of Maryland, they'll go 85 percent on multifamily of the purchase, and they'll finance 100 percent of the rehab.
Brock Freeman: Wow.
Malcolm Turner: You know that, that's, that's great. Yeah. And so, you know, and some of 'em will say, because you have to look at, well, what's the purchase relative to the rehab?
Sure. Right. So whatever your cost is sometimes they'll say, okay, we need to have at least 30% of cost you in the deal. Yeah. You got 30% skin in the game. Yeah, yeah. You got skin of the game. We'll, we'll, we'll work that out. You know, but some of the numbers are, are, are tremendous.
Brock Freeman: Well, there you go you want that kind of loan? For those of you that have been asking me about that, you gotta come see Malcolm. He knows where to go.
Malcolm Turner: But one of the other challenges is, besides experience, but let's say, let's say you get knowledge. But now I have no experience. I'm trying to break out of residential, get into commercial, but I got zero experience.
That's the first thing you want to know, right? Have you done this before? You know, oh, uh, no. Okay, so you own no real estate. And your first deal, you wanna be a 50 unit multifamily . No. And you haven't rented a house , so you have no tenant experience what that's like? No. Okay. Rather than say kick rocks. I say, you need a partner. Yeah. Right. You have to network. Yep. You know, and there's this great faith, uh, phrase, I'm not the person who invented it. You know, your net worth is equal to your network.
Brock Freeman: Absolutely.
Malcolm Turner: Right. You need to go to real estate meetups, get informed, get in some of these Facebook real estate groups, network with people, find someone who's done what you're trying to do.
You know, how are you going to add value to them? You find the deal. If you find the deal, you cost the deal out, you do due diligence, okay, now it's ready made, you know, for them. And for someone who started from scratch, one, you can go on YouTube and learn how to underwrite a deal. They don't need us for that, right?
Now you, you know, watch to make you understand how that works. Now underwrite a deal every day. Go on loop there, pull up a random property. Look at the rent roll, you know, look at the operating statement and underwrite the deal, right? Then do another one.
Brock Freeman: Those real estate meetups are a great help because at least in my experience working with other real estate people. It's usually a very friendly community. That's very helpful. I know in, you know, Seattle where I'm from, there's a, I mean, there's got to be two dozen different real estate meetups in Seattle. I'm sure you must have a very vibrant real estate investment, uh, community here, in person.
Malcolm Turner: Absolutely. And, and I was at a real estate meetup, this was probably about a year ago.
One of the investors they have a part of the meeting where they they'll do needs wants. Mm hmm, right? Mm hmm, so they'll have a mic and each of you know Everyone can get up to the mic and you've got like, you know a minute and say, okay, what do you need? I'm looking for you know multi-family, you know, what do you want?
I or I have mm hmm, right? I have this property anyone wants to buy it You know, I got a contract for X, the rehab is X, I'm looking to, you know, flip this thing, or I got this property, it's fully occupied, it's totally stabilized. You know, anyone's looking to get into, you know, a strip mall, and they're all three, five year leases, blah, blah, blah, let me know, here's my number.
You know, and one guy got up, this was a year ago, and he said, just so you guys know, um, I quit my job. Last week, I've done well enough in real estate, you know, I've done six figures three years in a row So now my wife will let me Full time investor the whole room. Yeah, it's like You know not like oh there's another guy poor guy they're like no congratulations go get them There's enough opportunity in the market for everybody.
Those meetings are very open and friendly. They're not closed, uh, at all. You know, again, as long as someone puts themselves out as being a person of integrity, who's got a passion for the business. Because we all like working with passionate people.
Brock Freeman: Well, that's one thing we are happy to do as a lender. As long as someone's got a couple of years of...
Fix and flip, single family, 1-4 unit experience, renting out, being a landlord and owner. Uh, we'll be that, we'll do that first property for them. But we do have those times where someone comes along as a broker and says, Uh, I got someone trying to get into, you know, they want to do a retail strip mall and they have zero experience.
Like, look, go, go get some experience with somebody else. Or, you know, partner with a deal or go do some single family places where you either get someone to help you who has that experience So you don't make the mistakes or you go do something on something smaller where your mistakes not going to cost you your financial life Because those mistakes you make on commercial property could end it prematurely.
Malcolm Turner: Right, right.
Well, and that's where management comes in. Yeah, right. Do you have professional management handling this for you. Mm hmm, you know If you're going to be, like, think it's mailbox money, it may be more involved than that than you think. But that's what talking to someone and networking people says, Listen dude, you're not just going to walk in there and the chips are just going to fall out. You got to work for it.
Brock Freeman: One of the things in your book, uh, that you did such a great job with your, I like the whole BLISS nomenclature. Acronym you did that's great..
As you know, for us, we have, uh, an investment fund, uh, with investors, uh, including myself and Chris. We have a significant amount of our net worth, but sometimes getting across to people and explaining to them, they're shocked they've never done or even been around private lending themselves. And so, you know, for, for them, maybe they're, maybe they made their money being an entrepreneur in Tech.
Uh, and the best thing for them that they've ever done in real estate is buy their own house. You know, and they got, you know, they're sitting on a 2.625, you know, 30 year fixed rate. And so, you know, they're looking at you charge how much? 14 percent on some loans? What? Are you a loan shark? I mean, is this legal?
Of course, I have to remind sometimes them, or Chris reminds them that, well, you know, at one time in not too long history here in America, we did have prime rate in the 14's, 16's. Anyway, maybe on these bridge loans, you can kind of explain why these types of loans are important. And why in a, why is someone buying a piece of real estate or cash out?
Why would they even be willing to pay what seems like exorbitant rates?
Malcolm Turner: Well, I think it's, it's all, it all comes back to the math, right? In what universe does 12, 13, 14 percent rates, and we're even talking about the points, right? Where does all of that make sense, right? Well, you know, going back to my book, you know, the BLISS Method, you know, the Bridge Loan Investor Success Strategy gets into how you can have that property I mentioned earlier. It's uh, 36 units, vacant, right?
Brock Freeman: It's vacant?
Malcolm Turner: It's vacant.
Brock Freeman: Ah, okay. Okay?
Malcolm Turner: Yep. But the market rent in that neighborhood is, you know, 1,200 a month. It's in a good area, but this, for some reason, whatever reason occurred this property got neglected. Yep. OK. Now they're putting it out on the market. Yep. OK. Now, at one point the seller was trying to sell this thing, You know how sellers are.
They want the after repaired value.
Brock Freeman: Of course they do.
Malcolm Turner: Like, oh this thing will be worth 3 million dollars! After you do all this stuff and fix it up. Yeah, but I'm not going to pay you 3 million for it now. Not when it's vacant, and I gotta do all that work, and I have to find those tenants and lease it up, and blah, blah, blah, you know, and they're like, Well, it may take a while for them to come down, their price to come down and be more realistic.
Well, at a million bucks, you say, Hey, if I put in, let's say hypothetically, we'll use it around even a million dollars. That's 27, 000 a unit. Mm hmm. Oh, that's... Okay. That'll get that, that, that unit, uh, that whole building up to market level real quick. Okay. In 12 months, you've got a good GC. Yep. Okay. You now have an asset worth three.
Yeah. The problem is today, it's not bankable.
Brock Freeman: Right.
Malcolm Turner: They can't go to Chase the Bank of America.
Brock Freeman: Not only do they not want to, can't touch it, they don't want to touch it anymore. They don't want. Banks, prime lenders, long term lenders, they don't want anything that's not stabilized.
Malcolm Turner: That's right. There's no cash flow.
Therefore, the value of the asset is in the toilet. So we're like, yeah, we can't, we can't touch that. Right? Well, the investor's thinking, I can generate, turn this into a $3,000,000 asset. You know, I just need someone to help me out. Yeah, so when we show up And we say hey, we have this thing called a commercial bridge loan where it's not dependent.
Brock Freeman: Yeah
Malcolm Turner: Upon it being fully occupied.
Brock Freeman: Right.
Malcolm Turner: And cash flowing.
Brock Freeman: Right
Malcolm Turner: And in great Prime A condition.
Brock Freeman: So you're talking about the ugly property that no one's loving right now and it's, it's a, it's single.
Malcolm Turner: And when the national and local occupancy for multifamily is 95%. Yep. Okay. Yeah. I'm going to fill those 36 units up. Right. And so that's what we come in and they look at that and says, yeah, of course I'm going to pay, you know, 14 percent and you know, two to four points on the deal because I'm going to have an asset worth 3 million and now going up as those rents continue to rise at that point.
Brock Freeman: So you're saying it's, it's really, they look at it, they turn around and they're sort of ignoring the rate and the points and the closing costs and they're looking at what's my ROI on this?
Malcolm Turner: Exactly. Exactly.
Brock Freeman: Well, like any tool, it's just like, you know, they're going to have to pay out a lot of money for contractors and fixing it up.
But again, it's just, you calculate it as a business. Looking at that return on investment, does it make sense? And if it doesn't, you know, they walk.
Malcolm Turner: If my, if my cost basis, when I'm done, is two million dollars. One on the acquisition, one on the rehab. Yep. Right? But my asset value is three. Right. Well, yeah, we throw some, some, some finance costs in there.
Like, okay, now let's play devil's advocate. Throw the value add thing out for a second, right? One of the other things I talk about in my book, and I've used your client for this, right? With some of my investors, is opportunities. Yeah. Where you get a seller, they're in a bad situation, it's bad timing, they, I had a deal, the, the buyer walked away the day before closing.
Mm hmm. And the seller was ticked. My borrower, right, who got outbidded on the deal, right, came in, talked to us and said, Hey, did that deal close? No. Oh, you know what? Tell you what? I'll close in three weeks, but he's got to be at my original offer, which is 25 percent less than what they were supposed to close at.
Right. And you're at 25 percent man, that's a huge.
Brock Freeman: That's a big discount.
Malcolm Turner: That's a big discount. But you know what the seller said? Okay. Three weeks. Yeah.
Brock Freeman: Because they're distressed. They need that money right away for something.
Malcolm Turner: They already spent that money and they already bought those tickets to Florida.
You see what I'm saying? Oh yeah. And so they're like, sure. Now, you know, full fair disclosure, and I talk about this in the case study, because my book has case studies in it, right? They did realize they made an emotional decision, you know, and four days later, the, uh, listing agent calls me and say, Malcolm, are you still on track to close in three weeks?
And I'm like, Oh yeah, he's like, okay, cause they realized they got a little emotional there and they could have waited. And so, uh, there will be no extension on that PA.
Brock Freeman: Then you need a lender who can perform.
Malcolm Turner: Who can perform. And the, uh, the buyer, right. Who's my borrower is like, okay, Malcolm, we can close in 3 weeks, right.
Yeah. And I'm going, hey, Brock, we closed in 3 weeks, right? Yeah, okay. Yeah, right. And then we closed. And then we closed. And he, he, now, could he have, this was a fully occupied property. Totally centralized.
Brock Freeman: This is the apartment complex, it was like an 8 unit, a 2 unit, I can't remember.
Malcolm Turner: Yeah, exactly. And so it was like, okay, you know, he got it at the, now, did he have to pay, and at that time rates were lower.
So, it was, uh, 11 percent on the bridge. That sounds like a deal right now. Right? And it was like, you know, four points. But here was the thing. He got it. Yep. Four months later, he went and refi-ed. Mm hmm. You know, and, and, you know, refi-ed it, paid that loan off, had a nice low income back then. The rates were lower.
Yeah. So, I think, you know, his long term rate was maybe like five and a half, six percent.
Brock Freeman: Yeah, I remember him talking to him about it.
Malcolm Turner: Something like that. off. Yup. He's good. Yup. So, yeah, did he pay, and let's say hypothetically, easy math, let's say he was paying 12%, so he paid 1 percent a month. He paid 1 percent a month for 4 months, you know, and let's say, hypothetically, he paid 4 points.
Mm hmm. Okay, so he paid 8 points, but he got a 20 percent discount on the deal. There's the math right there. There's the math. And that's why investors, right, will say yes, that math makes sense. I will do that loan and use the Kirkland Capital, you know, you know, product to fund my deal. And the math makes sense to do.
You know, if they, if that, if he tells that seller, yeah, give me 60 days. They're like, oh, well then you're going to pay full boat, dude. People will discount for speed.
Brock Freeman: Well, that's kind of the American way, right? Convenience. We'll pay for convenience.
Malcolm Turner: Right. Exactly. And that's the niche that you guys fill, is you're able to get those deals done relatively quickly. You know, compared to, again, compared to the bank. Folks are like, there's no way you guys are going to get that done as fast.
Oh, yes, we will.
Brock Freeman: Well, uh, let's wrap up with a couple, uh, Items that are more, uh, you know, off the real estate topic, but, uh, you know, Malcolm, I'm sure you're super busy, actually being a famous book author, making the rounds, book rounds, but what things would you really want to do more of, but you don't have time for.
Malcolm Turner: Travel, love to travel, love to,
Brock Freeman: What's on your bucket list?
Malcolm Turner: I have a curious mind, and I'll just see something. Uh, on YouTube and be, Ooh, that'd be a nice place Hmm. That'd be, you know, Bali is on my, is on my bucket list. Um, Australia is, is on my New Zealand especially.
Brock Freeman: You know, they don't have multifamily in Australia. Ever heard. Did you know that?
Malcolm Turner: I did not.
Brock Freeman: Yeah, they're, they're, yeah, they, they'll build like buildings, but then they'll like sell 'em out like condos and people will buy like multiple sets of condos, but, My understanding is they don't have the concept of a multifamily building that one entity owns.
Malcolm Turner: Wow.
Brock Freeman: Uh, at least that's what I've been told by a couple of sources. I don't know if there's more nuance to it, or maybe the financing is there.
Malcolm Turner: It doesn't surprise me because the thing about travel is you go to another culture you will see a completely different mindset. You know, it's like that old joke about the two shoe salesmen that go to Africa. You familiar with this one?
Brock Freeman: No.
Malcolm Turner: Oh, okay. Two shoe salesmen go to Africa, right? First shoe salesman calls back to the home office and says, Listen, I'm coming home. These people don't wear shoes. Second shoe salesman calls back to the home office, Hey, send me everything you have. These people don't wear shoes.
Brock Freeman: Yeah, totally how you look at things.
Malcolm Turner: And you go to another culture and you're like, Oh, this would be terrible. And they're like, Oh no, this is great. And you're like, Hmm, never thought of it like that. It's a, you know, and having that different perspective and then you come back home. Yeah. Right. It gives you a richer view on life, I think.
Brock Freeman: Yeah. That's interesting you bring that up. I'm thinking also about how much people outside the U. S. are just looking for ways to get into the U. S. real estate market. Uh, you know, and it's just amazing. You talk about all around the world people want to immigrate here. Uh, and even if they don't want to or can't, they want to invest here in U. S. real estate. And, you know, I think that's partly just our American spirit of you can get us down for a little while, but we'll figure out a way to pick ourselves up, fix things. Uh, and get things going again. I mean, Detroit is really a testament to that.
Malcolm Turner: And what people, unless you've been other places, you don't understand and fully have an appreciation for, is the C word of corruption.
You know, people in America will casually, Oh, he's corrupt. Oh, he's corrupt. You know, it's like, what did he do? Oh, he, you know, he skimmed, you know, you know, $100 off every $10,000 that passed his desk. And it's like, oh, you go to Africa? They're like, hey, let me show you how it's done. No, we're gonna skim 900 off of every thousand that cross our desk.
You get pulled over, and you're like, hey officer, how you doing? He's like, yeah, I'm doing pretty good. How you doing? I'm doing pretty good. And you're like, what? And the cab driver's like, you gotta pay him if you wanna get to where we gotta go. And you're like, oh, okay. You know, and what people appreciate in other foreign countries, they don't have that here.
They're like, he didn't ask. You mean the guy, just, like the realtor. The realtor agreed to a percentage, and he didn't try to ask for side money on the deal? The title company didn't have it for side money? So they look at doing business in other countries, and they have to do these extra payoffs, to all, everyone who touches the deal wants extra.
And they come here, and they're like, You mean people actually do what they say? You got contracts and you can go to the local, you know, judge and say, Hey, this guy's, you know, stole from me. And the judge said, okay, give him back his money. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't have to pay off the judge.
Brock Freeman: Which reminds me, Malcolm, make sure you give me that bag of cash that, you know, from doing those loans for him.
Malcolm Turner: Right. Right. So everybody wants to come here and do business.
Brock Freeman: People just don't even think of that. It's like, you know. It's true. I mean, it's not like there's zero corruption here, but you can pretty much do business here without many times ever running into it.
Malcolm Turner: Well, and you look at ROI, right? Yeah. Our clients are people that are, have a specific ROI target.
How much more complicated would it be if you had to add a 25 to 35 percent corruption premium to getting the deal done. Yeah. Yeah. It, it is. It's like impossible. And they come here. Yeah. And they're like, oh my God. And we will do foreign investors.
Brock Freeman: Yeah. We will.
Malcolm Turner: Right. We'll do foreign investors. And they're like, now they may, you know, put a little bit more down to the American citizen.
Yep. Right. But the foreign investors, like, man, I'm working on my green card right now. Yeah. I'm not going anywhere. Like, let's, let's do this 'cause this is still cheaper. Yep. They're trying to do business back home.
Brock Freeman: I said we wouldn't go back to real estate. There we go.
Malcolm Turner: I can't help it.
Brock Freeman: So, uh, second to last question.
What new belief, behaviors, or habits adopted within maybe the last five years have most positively impacted your life?
Malcolm Turner: Um, that's a hard one. There's a, there's a few actually. Um, I'll tell you, I'll tell you.
Brock Freeman: Pick the top one or two.
Malcolm Turner: I'll pick one of the top ones. Um, I started listening to a motivational speaker named Eric Thomas, probably six, seven years ago, right?
And Eric Thomas would talk about getting up at 3 o'clock in the morning.
And how, he was like, I, I have, you know, no money, no connections, no education, but I got tremendous work ethic. You may be smarter than me, richer than me, but you will not outwork me. Right? And, I was like, you know what? He's right.
And so, and, and he talks about how do you work it, you don't just start at 3 o'clock. Right? You get up at 6, you do that, you know, if that's, you know, not normal for you. And then, you know, you try, okay, let me do 5 o'clock for a month or two. And then you go to four, you know, now I'm at three. Last night, swear to God, I woke up at 2:30 this morning, right? Part of me was like, normally I'm like 3:30, and I'm like, man, 2:30? Yes, but it's another hour to get stuff done. So I stayed up, right? And from, and I have a 7 a. m. meeting with my loan officers that work for me. right? And we'll go from 7am to 830, right? Yeah. And I started it with one guy, because the guy was like, man, we should have a meeting, you know, talk about systems, like, yeah, we should do it early.
He's like, I can do early. Can you do early? Are you sure? And he's like, well how early are you talking? I was like, I don't want to stress him out.
And he was like, you're not going to get it earlier than me. And he's like, okay, how about 7? 7 is good, right? So I'm at 3:30.
Brock Freeman: Yeah.
Malcolm Turner: And no one's calling me.
Brock Freeman: Yeah.
Malcolm Turner: My, my, I'm not getting email. Yeah. But I'm up.
Brock Freeman: That's, that's time for that deep work. Now I know how you got that book written.
Malcolm Turner: Right. And I can, and I can do stuff in the day that I may feel guilty about. Yeah. You know what I mean? And I can do, 'cause there's, there's one thing to work in the business, there's another thing to work on the business.
Brock Freeman: Absolutely.
Malcolm Turner: Yep. Right. So by the time. 7 o'clock rolls around. I'm like, all right, guys, let's go. I've been waiting on you, you know, and they're like, man, why are you so like, it's 7am in the morning, but I'm like, let's go, man. Let's hit it. That extra time is awesome. It's awesome.
Brock Freeman: One of the things you mentioned about you got that work ethic, but you're starting with nothing.
That's really one of the awesome things about real Estate in America. You can start with literally, you got a job, I don't know, I mean, totally minimum wage job, but you got to rent someplace, uh, you know, where else can you go where you can go on bigger pockets or meet up with a real estate, uh, meet up and they will help you house hack, apartment hack, and build it.
And then pretty soon, five years later, you're talking to Malcolm about doing your first commercial deal. I mean, where else can you build a real estate empire in such a short period of time? Still, huge opportunities here for those who are going to work hard.
Malcolm Turner: People do residential wholesale, right? When they've got nothing.
Brock Freeman: Yeah, that's right.
Malcolm Turner: When they save up enough money from wholesaling to now become an investor. Folks do the same thing in commercial. You know, you know, like my guys, you know, we do loans. But then also as a group, we'll commercial wholesale a deal in a heartbeat.
Brock Freeman: Yeah. So last question, other than your own book, I'm sure you're gifting that and I can't recommend that more highly, uh, to anybody in the real estate or investing in real estate.
Malcolm Turner: Financing the Unbankable Deal.
Brock Freeman: Well, we'll have a link down in our notes and whatever we send out.
Malcolm Turner: On Amazon.
Brock Freeman: But what other books have you either gifted or you feel like those are really seminal books for you in your career, your life, etc.?
Malcolm Turner: Um, you know, you have the oldies but goodies. Think and Grow Rich.
Every millionaire I've ever met has that book in their library. Um, uh, Awaken the Giant by, uh, Karl Rutherford.
Brock Freeman: Humans that are kind of off the radar and out of the box there.
Malcolm Turner: I'll tell you two recent books, same author, that are hot. I think everyone in business needs to read these books. Hundred million dollar offers? by Alex Hormozy. Right? And this brand new book that just came out maybe three weeks ago, a month ago, um, Hundred Million Dollar Leads. Tremendous, tremendous book. Both of them.
Brock Freeman: Great.
Malcolm Turner: You know, uh, I could not, and, and, uh, Hundred Million Dollar Leads broke the internet. Because when he launched that book, and I had my, my launch party here in this, in this office that we're sitting in, and Alex did his launch and he had 500,000 people.
Brock Freeman: That's crazy.
Malcolm Turner: And they, they, it literally broke because Zoom, he's like, okay, we'll do Facebook Live, YouTube Live, we're going to do Zoom, and he set up, and he used the marketing strategy in the book to market the book. Right.
Brock Freeman: Sort of prove, prove his, the, his theorem. Right.
Malcolm Turner: Prove, prove this point. So real quick, one of the examples was, um, using affiliates.
Mm. Okay. Yeah. So he's on the thing, he's holding the book up. He goes, now there's 500 and some odd thousand people on this call. 126,000 of you came from affiliates, you know? Yeah. Sort of again, the proof is in the, in, in the pudding. Yeah. Right. And so I think every business owner or aspiring entrepreneur should look at it.
Brock Freeman: To some degree, we actually adhere to that and we believe in that as well as a lender. When we were setting up, Chris, my business partner, he comes from the investment management side, so he didn't really have any idea around sort of the lending business, you know, the day to day on the ground stuff. And when I told him, I said, Hey, I'm going to do a Uh, deal where I'm not, we're not going to accept loans directly from, uh, borrowers.
We're, we're going to set up, I'm going to build a loan broker network. We're going to only accept them through that. And that's really that affiliate network and the power of that. And yeah, it took us maybe a little longer to get going with that, but then, you know, we get to have great relationships with great loan brokers, such as yourself that are actually of better help to borrowers because you can guide them more than we could ever do it.
Um, and that's really the power of that affiliate business, in our case, with the lending.
Malcolm Turner: Relationships. Having long term, repeatable relationships.
Brock Freeman: For sure.
Malcolm Turner: You know, absolutely. 100 percent agree.
Brock Freeman: Well, Malcolm, this has been a lot of fun talking with you about book, life, Detroit, uh, commercial real estate, which is our passion.
And, uh, thank you so much.
Malcolm Turner: Hey, welcome to our town, man.
Brock Freeman: Great.
Malcolm Turner: Good to have you.
Brock Freeman: Alright, now let's go get something to eat.
Malcolm Turner: Let's do that.
